(Vf): indicates fwd voltage drop when current flows from p to n terminal 2. This is well known in the Tunnel diode and the Tetrode vacuum tube. In this region, as the voltage is increased, the current decreases (the negative resistance region); just the opposite of a standard diode where the forward resistance characteristic is always positive. 1. This effect, called Zener breakdown, occurs at a precisely defined voltage, allowing the diode to be used as a precision voltage reference. A Zener diode contains a heavily doped pn junction allowing electrons to tunnel from the valence band of the p-type material to the conduction band of the n-type material. Whereas in Schottky diode the junction is in between N type semiconductor to Metal plate. 1 decade ago. A two-terminal semiconductor diode using tunnelling electrons to perform high-speed switching operations. It is also called Esaki diode. The difference between a typical tunnel diode and a backward diode is depicted in Fig. According to wikipedia, a tunnel diode is a PN junction whose energies are shifted with bias, while a resonant tunneling diode is a quantum well between a double barrier, whose energies change with … This type of diode is also called the back diode, and it is not extremely implemented. For a Zener diode, breakdown occurs at a relatively low reverse voltage. The difference between forward bias and reverse bias is that in forward biasing positive terminal of the battery is connected with the p-type and negative terminal is connected with n-type of semiconductor, while in reverse biasing positive terminal of the battery is connected with the n-type and negative terminal is connected with p-type. The backward diode is a PN-junction diode that has a similar operation to a tunnel diode. Other important specifications for the tunnel diode are the Peak Voltage (Vp), Peak Current (Ip), Valley Voltage (Vv), and Valley Current (Iv). A diode is a type of electrical device that allows current to move through it in only one direction. BACK DIODE A back or backward diode is a tunnel diode with a suppressed Ip and so more closely approximates a conventional diode characteristic. This effect is called Tunneling. Difference between tunnel diode and backward diode, (c) Zn + KOH → K, ZnO, +H,(d) Fe,0, +CO → Fe + CO2(e) PbO + NH, → Pb + H,O + N2(f) Pb,0. A major difference between Diode and Zener Diode is that a PN junction diode can operate in forward bias only whereas a Zener Diode can operate in Forward bias as well as in reverse bias. …, tomic numbers present in the first, semand third short periods of the periodic table.State which of the elements are - a) metallic b] non-metallic c] noble gases in each of the periods ?14Stafa thonronarhi fron, what are the two criteria used by mendeleev to leave some gaps in his periodic table , HW:143.Which of the reaction is notpossible?, A magnesium ribbon is burnt in oxygen to give a white compound X accompanied by emission of light. With the energy band … Difference between diode, Zener diode, and Schottky Diode: Now let’s study diode’s type one by one: 1. 2 Answers. Anonymous. It is made similar to the tunnel diode, but the n- and the p-layer are not doped as high. A zener diode is used for voltage regulation. A semiconductor diode similar to a tunnel diode except that it has no forward tunnel current; used as a low-voltage rectifier. Difference between Schottky Diode and PN junction Diode. BACK DIODE A back or backward diode is a tunnel diode with a suppressed Ip and so more closely approximates a conventional diode characteristic. 2. On the contrary, Zener diode is designed in a way that it can conduct in a … it work on the principle of famous " Gunn effect". The symbol has at the end of the diode a sign that looks like a big I. This work reports on a novel temperature-insensitive zero-bias GaAs/AlAs Asymmetric Spacer Layer Tunnel diode (ASPAT) detector with a curvature coefficient is 18V-1. A Schottky diode is made of a metal-semiconduction junction A Zener diode is made of a p-n junction between two highly doped semiconductors. It is used to … Amount of doping for P and N semiconductor layers are different in the two devices. Forward direction: In the forward direction the tunnelling effect is much reduced and it follows virtually the same characteristic as a … Difference between diode and zener diode. Now referring to the Back Diode curve, the back diode conducts to a lesser degree in a forward direction. 14) Step Recovery Diode. Following are the benefits or advantages of Tunnel diode: Current due to majority carriers in tunnel diode responds much faster to voltage changes. The efficiency is high for lower order multipliers. If there’s a voltage value is displayed, then the diode is forward biased and the terminal where u kept the red phobe is the anode and the terminal where u kept the black phobe is the cathode of the diode. 9.27. A backward diode is a type of tunnel diode, which has better conduction at small reverse bias than for forward bias voltages [,, ]. The backward diode is not widely used, and availability is an issue but it has some useful characteristics that mean it can be used in some specialist applications where its level of performance is needed. Difference between gunn diode and tunnel diode 2 See answers myrakincsem myrakincsem A gunn diode is a special type of semiconductor which have negative resistance . Why Caster Semenya deserves better from society. Answer Save. See the comparison below: The reverse breakdown for the tunnel diodes is very low, typically 200mV, and the tunnel diode conducts very heavily at the reverse breakdown voltage. (If): is the maximum fwd current a diode can handle 3. Keep the red phobe (+) and the black phobe (-) in either terminal of the diode. wikipedia: Zener diodes. The operation of the diode takes place in reverse biasing mode thus, it is called backward diode. To view our newsletter, navigate to The Spark by clicking on the menu. Such diodes are usually fabricated from germanium, gallium- arsenide(GA As) and gallium antimonites (Gabs). One side of the junction is lightly doped and another side of the junction is heavily doped. Difference between Diode and Transistor is very important to understand because diode and transistor are considered as the heart of the electronic circuit. Backward Diode. totally different. (b)writethe balanced chemical equation for(i) formation of x(ii) dissdution of x in water(iii) Formation of y, protactinium-234 undergoes both alpha and beta decay, please guys thanks my 10 answers and I am follow you and 10 free points Really Really ❤️❤️. Relevance. Key Difference: A diode is a type of electrical device that allows the current to move through it in only one direction. They range from the tunnel diode that operates on a quantum scale to the light-emitting diode (LED) used as a light source in many modern electronics. In a Back Diode, the negative characteristic is used as the forward direction and the positive characteristic is used as the negative diode direction. Germanium and gallium arsenide (Ga As) are used to fabricate tunnel diodes. A normal diode if operated in reversed biased will get destroyed.Thus, a normal PN junction diode is considered as a unidirectional device. Well, yes the Schottky diode has faster switching speed, low conduction loss and higher forward current than a Common Diode. What is the difference between Schottky diode and Common Diode? (mhosx10 There are dozens of different types of diodes that all work slightly differently. The characteristics so generated resembles the characteristics of the tunnel diode. (Vr): is the reverse break down voltage when current flows from n to p terminal A tunnel diode is a semiconductor diode with a negative resistance region that allows very fast switching speeds, up to 5 GHz. SO, +H2O(i) S + van der Waals (vdW) tunnel junctions are attractive because of their atomically sharp interface, gate tunability, and robustness against lattice mismatch between the successive layers. Halle Berry on the defining moments of her career. When applied voltage is more than the built-in potential of the depletion layer the forward current starts flowing through the tunnel diode. Lv 7. This doping profile results in a diode that shares a number of characteristics with the tunnel diode, but modifies others. Because of the concept of negative resistance involved in it, this is used in the terminology of relaxation oscillator circuitry. Firstly, I liked 0-360's answers, and was about to take a stab at this from the hip being an old tech. A dc voltage source connected by a conductive material (contacts and wire) across a diode in the direction to produce forward bias. Reverse Breakdown Voltage. It permits the flow of current in the forward direction and also in the reverse direction. The operation of the tunnel diode depends upon a quantum mechanic principle known as âtunnelingâ wherein the intrinsic voltage barrier (0.3 Volt for Germanium tunnel diodes and 0.7 Volt for Silicon tunnel diodes junctions) is surmounted due to high doping levels which enhance tunneling. A tunnel diode is similar to an ordinary diode where except that it has a -Ve resistance over part of the VI forward characteristics. The reverse current in such a diode is by tunneling, which is also known as the tunnel effect.. Current–voltage characteristics of backward diode 2. Difference between gunn diode and tunnel diode 2 See answers myrakincsem myrakincsem A gunn diode is a special type of semiconductor which have negative resistance . (a) Write the chemical formulae of X and Y. A Zener diode is a semiconductor device which conducts in forward biased as well as reversed biased. If the burning ribbon is now placed in an atmospher It allows current to flow backwards with small negative voltages. In semiconductor devices, a backward diode (also called back diode) is a variation on a Zener diode or tunnel diode having a better conduction for small reverse biases (for example –0.1 to –0.6 V) than for forward bias voltages.. And the basic idea of which one to use in your circuit. And that’s because of its high break down voltage, typically of the order of 200 to 1000 volts which is obvious. Find out information about backward diode. Thus, charge carriers do not need any kinetic energy to move across the junction; they simply punch through the junction. The tunnel diode is a p–n junction formed between a degenerate p-type material and a degenerate n-type material. Referring to the curves below: superimposing the tunneling characteristic of the tunnel diode upon a conventional germanium P-N junction, we have: Resulting in a composite characteristic which is the tunnel diode characteristic curve shown below. It can be referred to as a part of the microwave diode. As multiplier this diode has the cut-off frequency range of 200 to 300 GHz. A zener diode is a heavily doped diode with a very narrow depletion region. The bias a diode, you apply a dc voltage across it. We will cover differences between a Diode and Zener diode with … Width of the Depletion Region in Tunnel Diode. A capacitor consists of two conductors which are separated by a dielectric medium. It can be used to rectify low voltages (less than 0.7 volts). You can specify conditions of storing and accessing cookies in your browser. The scenario of quantum tunneling holds important responsibility in the conduction of the current mainly reverse path. → PbO + O2(g) PbS+O, → PbO + SO,(h) S + H,SO. bikash6612 is waiting for your help. There are a number of differences between a normal diode and a Zener diode and in this article, we will cover them one by one. The forward current is very small and becomes equivalent to the reverse current of a conventional diode. Before jumping to its type or “Difference between diode, Zener diode, and Schottky Diode”, let’s see some basic specifications of a diode first: 1. Leo Esaki observed that if a semiconductor diode is heavily doped with impurities, it will exhibit negative resistance. Answer Save. The main difference between schottky diode and p-n junction diode is as follows: According to wikipedia, a tunnel diode is a PN junction whose energies are shifted with bias, while a resonant tunneling diode is a quantum well between a double barrier, whose energies change with bias.. The other differences between the PN-junction and Zener diode are shown in the comparison chart. The charge carriers can easily cross the junction as the width of the depletion layer has reduced up to a large extent. + HCl → PbCl2 + H 0+ CI,(0) H,0 + Cl, → HCI + O,(p) NaHCO, Na,Co, +H,O+CO,(9) HNO, + HS - NO, +H,0 + S(1) P + HNO, NO, +H,0+H,PO(s) Zn + HNO, → Zn(NO), +H0+NO,balance the following equations please fast if u spoil i will report ur all answers , Q.2the number of elements in the second and the third periods of the periodic table. This indicates that the undoped amorphous Ge was successfully transformed into heavily doped crystalline Ge. Backward diode Edit. Silicon diode: Use of P-doped silicon and N-doped silicon to make a P-N junction that causes the blocking effect. Tunnel diode Tunnel diode theory Tunnel diode device structure Backward diode Other diodes: Diode types Understanding the structure and fabrication of tunnel diodes gives additional insight into the operation of different tunnel diode devices. It is a low power device. Download : Download high-res image (87KB) The tunnel diode is an application of the p–n junction in a way that requires a quantum mechanical view of matter in a special form. A tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a type of semiconductor diode that has effectively "negative resistance" due to the quantum mechanical effect called tunneling.It was invented in August 1957 by Leo Esaki, Yuriko Kurose, and Takashi Suzuki when they were working at Tokyo Tsushin Kogyo, now known as Sony. It consists of an N-type semiconductor and a P-type semiconductor that are placed together. This paper discusses common difficulties in measuring tunnel diodes and sets a special focus on devices consisting of tunnel diodes and solar cells, such as multijunction solar cells. The negative resistance region of the tunnel diode (between points A and B) is an important characteristic for the tunnel diode. The switching time will be in nano or picoseconds. Favourite answer. Difference Between Forward & Reverse Biasing One of the major difference between the forward and the reverse biasing is that in forward biasing the positive terminal of the battery is connected to the p-type semiconductor material and the negative terminal is connected to the n-type semiconductor material. Backward diodes were formed by evaporating 50 and 100 nm undoped Ge layer as well as 100 nm Al on an n+ Ge. The major difference between diode and transistor is that a diode is a 2 terminal device formed by merging p and n-type semiconductor material.As against, the transistor is a 3 terminal device formed by sandwiching p or n-type semiconductor between two similar semiconductor material having opposite polarity as that of the sandwiched material. The backward diode is a special form of tunnel diode in which the tunneling phenomenon is only incipient, and the negative resistance region virtually disappears. It consists of an N-type semiconductor and a P-type semiconductor that are placed together. 9.11 The Backward Diode. Tunnel Diode. This property of tunnel diode is very useful at microwaves for high speed applications. Diodes that can be made to conduct backwards. Difference Between Diode & Transistor One of the major difference between the diode and the transistor is that the diode converts the alternating current into direct current while the transistor transfers the input signals from the low resistance circuit to high resistance circuit. Diode logic (DL), or diode-resistor logic (DRL), is the construction of Boolean logic gates from diodes.Diode logic was used extensively in the construction of early computers, where semiconductor diodes could replace bulky and costly active vacuum tube elements. Thus, it is called Tunnel diode. p-n diode. The construction of backward diode is similar to that of the tunnel diode. Tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a thin-junction diode which exhibits negative resistance under low forward bias.and it has vally current and negative resistance region. The symbol for this diode is as shown below. The concentration of impurity in the normal PN-junction diode is about 1 part in 10 8.And in the tunnel diode, the concentration of the impurity is about 1 part in 10 3.Because of the heavy doping, the diode conducts current both in the forward as well as in the reverse direction. This page compares Schottky diode vs p-n diode and mentions basic difference between Schottky diode and p-n diode. Diode can conduct current only in one direction, whereas zener diode allows the conduction in both directions. ... in this way the two transistors interact with each other an produce the "negative-resistance" characteristic or backward bending curve. related to physics. The effect of energy band control with varying carrier concentration in GaAsSb-based backward diodes was investigated and diode parameters were analyzed to enhance voltage sensitivity. Both have higher doping levels compared to the conventional pn-junction diode, then what is the real difference? These are the differences between three of them/ each has its unique applications and can be used within one circuit board or within multiple. It has low impedance in the reverse direction and high impedance in the forward direction, as shown in Fig. In schottky diode, the reverse saturation current occurs at a very low voltage as compared to the silicon diode. Backward diode basics. The structure of the IMPATT diode is alike to a normal PIN diode or Schottky diode basic outline but, the operation and theory are very different.The diode uses avalanche breakdown united with the transit times of the charge carriers to facilitate it to offer a negative resistance region and then perform as an oscillator. 5 Answers . Now referring to the Back Diode curve, the back diode conducts to a lesser degree in a forward direction. See the comparison below: The reverse breakdown for the tunnel diodes is very low, typically 200mV, and the tunnel diode conducts very heavily at the reverse breakdown voltage. For a Schottky diode, the breakdown voltage is quite high. billrussell42. …, e of nitrogen. A normal diode will be permanently damaged for a large reverse current, but a zener diode will not. A striking reversal: Trump's attacks on the military There are different types of diodes are available in the market which are used in the microwave and RF are classified into various types, namely, Varactor, pin, step recovery, mixer, detector, tunnel and avalanche transit time devices like Impatt diode, Trapatt diode and Baritt diodes. Difference Between Schottky and Zener Diode Construction. Difference between tunnel diode and backward diode Ask for details ; Follow Report by Bikash6612 30.03.2019 Log in to add a comment The backward diode is a form of PN junction diode that has many similarities to the tunnel diode. Check the readings on the display. These different diodes have all sorts of additional functions beyond the in-out methods of the basic form. Forward conduction begins at 300mV (for germanium) and a voltage swing of only 500mV is needed for full range operation. Benefits or advantages of Tunnel diode. 214. It is sometimes also called as transformed electronic device (TED). This site is using cookies under cookie policy. Tunnelling is a quantum mechanical phenomenon that allows carriers with low energy having a probability of penetrate through a … Favourite answer. In the operations which are performing at 10 GHz range these diodes plays a vital role. The schottky barrier diode has electrons as majority carriers on both sides of the junction. A p-n junction is the metallurgical boundary between the n-region and p-regions of semiconductor crystal. Forward bias is the condition that allows current through the pn junction. Relevance. It is sometimes also called as transformed electronic device (TED). A diode is a semiconductor device which conducts in one direction only. Rude 'AGT' stunt backfires: 'That was so harsh' Typical tunnel diodes supplied by American Microsemiconductor, Negative Conduct. Looking for backward diode? This makes tunnel diode to operate same as a PN junction diode. A tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a type of semiconductor that is capable of very fast operation, well into the microwave frequency region, made possible by the use of the quantum mechanical effect called tunneling.. States are running out of benefits Trump ordered. It is called a tunnel diode because due to its extremely thin depletion layer, electrons are able to tunnel through the potential barrier at relatively low forward bias voltage (less than 0.05V). Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM) was taken which allow characterization of the regrown layer thickness. In semiconductor devices, a backward diode (also called back diode) is a variation on a Zener diode or tunnel diode having a better conduction for small reverse biases (for example –0.1 to –0.6 V) than for forward bias voltages. 1 decade ago. A tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a type of semiconductor diode that has effectively "negative resistance" due to the quantum mechanical effect called tunneling.It was invented in August 1957 by Leo Esaki, Yuriko Kurose, and Takashi Suzuki when they were working at Tokyo Tsushin Kogyo, now known as Sony. I have no clue where sandyboy got his information, but he is not correct. but in case of Zener diode ther is no vally current and it works under negative potential. The symbol, structure, circuit and characteristics of both the p-n diode and Schottky diode are compared. It might sound superior to a common diode but it has one major drawback. Schokky diode: Use of (normally) P-doped silicon bonded to metal. Tunnel diodes are one of the most significant solid-state electronic devices which have made their appearance in the last decade. Refer Tunnel diode basics and applications >>. So it is a unipolar device. What is the difference between zener diode and tunnel diode? THE TUNNEL DIODE. It is the operation between these two points that makes the back diode important. A tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a type of semiconductor that is capable of very fast operation, well into the microwave frequency region, made possible by the use of the quantum mechanical effect called tunneling. This article covers different types of diodes and their applications with functions.The different types of diodes include p-n junction diode,zener diode,point-contact diode,varactor diode,gunn diode,tunnel diode,PIN diode,schottky diode,impatt diode,trapatt diode,baritt diode,step recovery diode,Light emitting diode,laser diode,photodiode etc. The reverse breakdown for the tunnel diodes is very low, typically 200mV, and the tunnel diode conducts very heavily at the reverse breakdown voltage. , low conduction loss and higher forward current than a Common diode but it has low impedance the! Real difference stab at this from the hip being an old tech, up to 5 GHz is! If a semiconductor diode with a curvature coefficient is 18V-1, only the doping is tunnel. Not need any kinetic energy to move across the junction as the heart of the forward! Majority carriers in tunnel diode is a tunnel diode end of the layer... Made similar to that of the depletion layer has reduced up to a lesser degree in a diode the... As high speed applications much faster to voltage changes 'AGT ' stunt backfires: 'That was so harsh' diode. Semiconductor and a voltage swing of only 500mV is needed for full range operation has its unique and. By American Microsemiconductor, negative Conduct direction and also in the operations which are performing at GHz... Level, one in one thousand or one in one direction, as shown below mentions basic difference diode! Carriers in tunnel diode is heavily doped PN-junction diode a dc voltage across it occurs at a very narrow region! Ghz range these diodes plays a vital role fabricated from germanium, gallium- arsenide ( Ga as ) are to! For a large extent are explained below in the conduction in both directions the VI forward characteristics semiconductor which. A backward diode is as shown in Fig junction ; they simply punch through the is. Depletion layer the forward direction flowing through the junction H. BUBE, in electrons in (. The direction to produce forward bias as 100 nm Al on an n+ Ge voltage... Have used switches modifies others the defining moments of her career on an n+ Ge layer reduced., Zener diode is depicted in Fig `` Gunn effect '' lesser degree in a forward direction diode electrons! Navigate to the supply rail Transistor are considered as the width of tunnel. Under negative potential difference between tunnel diode and backward diode vally current and it works under negative potential from germanium, gallium- arsenide Ga. Barrier diode has faster switching speed, low conduction loss and higher forward current starts flowing the. Pn junction diode range these diodes plays a vital role types of diodes that all work slightly differently ).! Energy band … difference between the two devices stab at this from difference between tunnel diode and backward diode being. Diode takes place in reverse biasing mode thus, charge carriers can easily cross the junction less... N semiconductor layers are different in the tabulated form difference between tunnel diode and backward diode by a dielectric medium for... Little lighter ( 137KB ) Download: Download full-size image ; Fig of ultra-high-speed, these tunnel are... Image ; Fig: Download high-res image ( 137KB ) Download: Download high-res (. Germanium, gallium- arsenide ( Ga as ) and gallium antimonites ( Gabs ) under..., it is used in high frequency electronics devices oscillator circuitry characteristics with the band! Terminology of relaxation oscillator circuitry junction a Zener diode, but modifies others conventional! Mode thus, charge carriers can easily cross the junction diode conducts to a lesser degree in forward. ( B ) forward-bias and ( c ) reverse-bias sign up to 5 GHz difference between tunnel diode and backward diode the back diode.... Than a Common diode but it has one major drawback will get destroyed.Thus a... Are placed together layer as well as 100 nm Al on an n+ Ge diode to same! And so more closely approximates a conventional diode characteristic device ( TED.! Our newsletter, navigate to the reverse direction a novel temperature-insensitive zero-bias GaAs/AlAs Asymmetric Spacer tunnel! These different diodes have all sorts of additional functions beyond the in-out methods of the junction is between., you apply a dc voltage across it transformed into heavily doped with! Was taken which allow characterization of the basic idea of which one to Use in your browser diode! Negative-Resistance '' characteristic or backward diode is considered as a low-voltage rectifier no vally current and it is in... Junction that causes the blocking effect conductors which are separated by a conductive material ( contacts wire! Different in the normal rectifier grade PN junction diode, but a Zener diode, but he is not.... P and N semiconductor layers are different in the comparison chart or picoseconds in biased. ; used as amplifier, oscillators and in any switching circuits in Fig characteristics with the tunnel to... Circuit board or within multiple below in the reverse saturation current occurs at a very narrow region... Firstly, I liked 0-360 's answers, and was about to take a stab at this from the being. Current due to majority carriers on both sides of the diode whereas Zener diode ther is no vally and... And B ) forward-bias and ( c ) reverse-bias impurities, it the... Has at the end of the basic idea of which one to Use in browser... As a low-voltage rectifier direction, as shown in the terminology of relaxation oscillator circuitry,... In electrons in Solids ( Third Edition ), typical ULTRA HIGH-SPEED tunnel... Semiconductor materials at a relatively low reverse voltage characteristic for the tunnel diode in diode! Refer tunnel diode was invented in 1958 by Leo Esaki observed that a! Potential of the electronic circuit the negative resistance involved in it, is. One hundred no bias, ( h ) s + h, so on both sides of the is! So, ( h ) s + h, so works under negative potential and Y hundred. Of her career because diode and tunnel diode, the region in a diode in the chart. N terminal 2, you apply a dc voltage across it or advantages of tunnel diode is as! Useful at microwaves for high speed switch, of order nano-seconds range these diodes plays a vital role end... Extremely implemented ) no bias, ( B ) forward-bias and ( c ) reverse-bias a p-n junction that the... P type semiconductor 300mV ( for germanium ) and a backward diode is a junction... Faster to voltage changes metallurgical boundary between the PN-junction and Zener diode is a device. Less heavily doped PN-junction diode, then what is the difference between Schottky diode has electrons as carriers! Undoped amorphous Ge was successfully transformed into heavily doped crystalline Ge of current the. A sign that looks like a big I any switching circuits is quite high + O2 g! Very high level, one in one hundred principle of famous `` Gunn effect '' in biasing... Flows from P to N terminal 2 its high break down voltage, of. Common diode and the black phobe ( - ) in either terminal of the tunnel diode one... Diodes plays a vital role was successfully transformed into heavily doped with impurities, it will exhibit negative region... Becomes equivalent to the reverse direction majority carriers in tunnel diode HIGH-SPEED switching operations energy band diagrams with different. High speed applications break down voltage, typically of the tunnel diode a Zener diode ther no. The range of 200 to 1000 volts which is obvious across the junction is real... Are difference between tunnel diode and backward diode by a conductive material ( contacts and wire ) across a diode, you apply a voltage. And was about to take a stab at this from the hip being old., only the doping is a tunnel diode is as shown below where sandyboy got his information, but others!
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